Legislature(1997 - 1998)
03/27/1997 01:21 PM House RES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HJR 21 - REQUESTING CONGRESS TO AMEND ANILCA Number 0091 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the first order of business was House Joint Resolution No. 21, relating to amendment of Title VIII of the Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act (ANILCA). He advised that public testimony was closed following the special testimony the previous week. Number 0115 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called an at-ease, at Representative Dyson's request, at 1:23 p.m. He called the meeting back to order at 1:29 p.m. Number 0187 REPRESENTATIVE REGGIE JOULE read from the state constitution, Article XII, Section 12, which says in part: "The State of Alaska and its people forever disclaim all right and title in or to any property belonging to the United States or subject to its disposition, and not granted or confirmed to the State or its political subdivisions, by or under the act admitting Alaska to the Union. The State and its people further disclaim all right and title in or to any property, including fishing rights, the right or title to which may be held by or for any Indian, Eskimo, or Aleut, or community thereof, as that right or title is defined in the act of admission. The State and its people agree that, unless otherwise provided by Congress, the property, as described in this section, shall remain subject to the absolute disposition of the United States." REPRESENTATIVE JOULE referred to extinguishment of aboriginal rights under the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act (ANCSA) and to John Borbridge's testimony March 13 regarding the conference committee that met prior to ANCSA. Representative Joule said it was not the intent of Congress to totally disclaim hunting and fishing rights for Alaska Natives. Because the state and the Secretary of Interior did not settle the issue, Title VIII of ANILCA was introduced. Number 0458 REPRESENTATIVE JOULE said under ANILCA, the state agreed to language regarding rural people that did not specify Native Alaskans. Concessions had been made then to accommodate the state's concerns. He believes HJR 21 goes against a deal that was made and he objects to it. He suggested figuring out a way to resolve the issue from a broader perspective. Number 0650 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said on its face, HJR 21 appears to be a good- faith attempt that calls for interested parties to sit down and find common ground on definitions in the agreement. He does not see it as an attempt to go back on anything. However, to his disappointment, it is not being perceived that way. Without all the parties at the table, he does not believe there will be an Alaskan solution acceptable to everyone. REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said he is troubled by his own vote, as he gave his word to vote it out of committee. He recommends that everyone put energy toward finding common ground and some basis on which to all sit down at the table. He expressed great distress at the polarization, reactions, and paranoia on several sides of the issue. He does not want his vote in committee to be construed as taking sides or breaking a deal. Neither does not believe this effort, well-intended as it appears, will be successful unless major portions of the Native community come forward and find common ground with others. He emphasized he is casting no aspersion. Number 0884 CO-CHAIRMAN BILL HUDSON concurred. He recognizes the difficulty of resolving this issue to everyone's satisfaction. He believes the most important element of HJR 21 is trying to prevent federal takeover of management of Alaska's fish and game. It does not resolve subsistence nor take one side over another. However, testimony from rural regions indicates no support for it, which troubles him. CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON said he does not know how to regain trust, have meaningful discussion and find a solution. It clearly will call for leadership and statesmanship, with less divisiveness. He expressed uncertainty as to his final vote, but believes it does no good to keep the resolution in committee. He suggested this issue should go through the whole process. He hopes people from rural and Native communities will help find a solution and break the impasse. CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated his belief that there is enough fish and game to satisfy everyone's interests. He said he worries about failing to act and letting the federal takeover of management of Alaska's fish and game become so entrenched that Alaska cannot get it back. "So I guess I'm pleading for the real leaders, who understand this issue better than I do, to help us find solution," he concluded. Number 1106 REPRESENTATIVE IRENE NICHOLIA stated her opposition to HJR 21. She feels that it is not a resolution to the federal-state subsistence impasse. It divides communities, it is not written with a spirit of cooperation, it is unnecessary, and it does not build trust. It also eliminates customary trade. For example, people who are widowed, elderly, crippled or have some kind of a disease that precludes them from fishing or hunting for their own families may use customary trade to exchange gasoline for fish or meat. REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA mentioned supplementing budgets with subsistence. She said rural people cannot survive without resources such as big game and fish. She also said HJR 21 ensures that regional advisory councils are ineffective or abolished. "We have great pride in voting for the person that represents us on these regional councils," she stated, noting that council members live in the area, follow caribou herds, know game and fish populations and work closely with biologists. Number 1270 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA said HJR 21 weakens Title VIII of ANILCA, which they depend on for survival and connection to cultural activities. Title VIII connects them to customary trade options and to the earth and all its resources. She emphasized that Title VIII only falls into place for the rural priority when there is a resource shortage. In her district, that had not yet happened. REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA pointed out there are private lands under Native corporations in her region. Although they could do so, they have not kicked anyone off those lands for hunting or fishing. She said they are trying to work with outsiders and those from urban Alaska who fish and hunt in her district. "They're great for our economy," she said. "We realize that. And we welcomed them into our communities. I've gone up and talked to those guys. They've had a lot of exchanges with us." She concluded by saying HJR 21 further divides village communities from urban communities. She does not believe HJR 21 will resolve the impasse. Number 1401 REPRESENTATIVE JOE GREEN acknowledged this is a much-discussed, sensitive and divisive issue. He pointed out Alaska's enormous size and said the square miles are equivalent to the "main actors" in the Civil War. He said in that case, the ultimate good was worth the strife. Here, there are two polarized views that will never come together. However, cultures and times are changing, with use of motorized vehicles and boats in rural areas, for example. Whereas when he came to Alaska, people thought it absurd to walk a mile for a moose, now that short distance would be welcome. Saying Alaska will forever remain as it was 100 or 50 years ago is not heading into the 21st century with the right attitude. He believes Alaska's fight collectively should be with the federal government, not internally over a few issues. As painful as it may be, he plans to support HJR 21. Number 1664 REPRESENTATIVE BEVERLY MASEK said the subsistence issue has been around many years, and the state has tried to resolve it. The congressional delegation has consistently requested a position from the state on this issue. Now, federal agencies have draft regulations in place to initiate preemption action against the state, including state land and navigable waters. She said HJR 21 looks at the fine points as far as what the state will be up against. REPRESENTATIVE MASEK stated that preemptive regulations could ultimately have a big impact on commercial fisheries, and they could be initiated as early as October 1997. Finding common ground is important, and it is the reason she introduced HJR 21. The resolution is designed to return fish and wildlife management to the state, while retaining some preference for subsistence on public lands. It is also designed to specifically exempt state and private lands or waters from any federal preemption, which she believes is extremely important. REPRESENTATIVE MASEK said the majority of the Senate and House clearly indicated a state constitutional amendment is neither possible nor desirable at this time. Therefore, the only possibility of relief from federal preemption lies within amending ANILCA. Delays in amending ANILCA only place the state at greater risk of total preemption by the federal government. REPRESENTATIVE MASEK spoke of efforts by former Governor Hickel and current Lieutenant Governor Ulmer to resolve this issue. The Alaska Federation of Natives (AFN) rejected attempts in both cases. The AFN has adopted a no-net-loss position; she noted that committee members have copies of this policy. Representative Masek said the question is what is necessary to protect the state's interests, including all users of Alaska's fish and wildlife. REPRESENTATIVE MASEK acknowledged testimony regarding fears that the rural preference will be in jeopardy. She emphasized that HJR 21 retains the rural preference. She concluded by thanking everyone for their input and opinions. Number 1928 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN said he too has a heavy heart. He emphasized that he is acting with malice towards none. His goal in moving HJR 21 is to facilitate conversation and hopefully bring all parties to the table. "Because if we don't do this, then all the motivation for solving this goes away," he stated. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN said the problem people have with customary trade is not that it's "here's some fish for some gas." He does not believe anyone would have a problem with that. However, people have a problem with outright sale of large quantities of subsistence-caught fish or game. He believes that goes against the spirit of subsistence. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN advised listeners that this is not a law but a resolution, an advisory position of the legislature asking Congress to make these changes. He shares the concern that Alaska is running out of time. His concern is for the resource. Looking at the state of Washington, for example, he does not believe either rural or urban Alaskans want their resource compromised like that. Number 2017 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN recounted how a pastor had shown excitement over change resulting from a crisis. He noted that HJR 21 brings this situation to a crisis. Many feel threatened by it, which he understands wholeheartedly. However, he believes the crisis will bring necessary change. It will require leadership by not only the legislature but the Governor's office, the Native community, the Alaska Outdoor Council and others. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN expressed hope for a consensus. He said according to Co-Chairman Hudson, when a consensus is reached, generally everybody is a little bit unhappy and then you know it is a good consensus. Co-Chairman Ogan said he wants to move HJR 21 because otherwise the issue will not be resolved. Number 2123 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA noted that the congressional delegation requested that Alaska come forward with unified voice on a solution to this problem. "We don't have a unified voice," she stated, asking whether passing the resolution out of committee was for nothing. She asked whether the sponsor wished to address that. REPRESENTATIVE MASEK declined, shaking her head. Number 2160 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated his wish to bring people to the table to discuss this. He said he would be working towards that goal. He reiterated his reason for moving HJR 21 is that if it stays in committee, the discussion ends. Number 2196 REPRESENTATIVE JOULE advised that the congressional delegation indicated they had been putting together waivers to extend this. He suggested letting them know this issue is on the table, that Alaska would like to leave it on the table and have them obtain a waiver. Work could then be done in the interim. REPRESENTATIVE JOULE acknowledged that a conclusion may not reached by the next session. He noted that some people have a problem with customary trade and barter, some with the state providing definitions, for example. He suggested taking up one issue at a time, dealing with it and then putting it away, so that people do not feel they must address everything at once. REPRESENTATIVE JOULE, responding to Representative Green's comments, said "our people have learned to adapt." He noted that although motorized boats are enjoyed, people still use skin boats for whaling because they are quiet. Although the equipment has changed, the harvest, the attitude and the spiritual connection have not. Number 2344 REPRESENTATIVE MASEK made a motion to move HJR 21 out of committee with individual recommendations and zero fiscal note. REPRESENTATIVE JOULE objected and asked about the tabled motion made at a previous hearing by Representative Barnes, currently absent. Number 2390 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called an at-ease at 2:11 p.m. He called the meeting back to order at 2:17 p.m. CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated his belief that the motion by Representative Barnes, left on the table at the March 13 meeting, had died because it was not taken up March 20. He believed the current motion was proper. Number 2430 REPRESENTATIVE FRED DYSON expressed appreciation for Representative Joule's suggestion of a waiver, which he understood to be postponement of the federal takeover. He offered to work on a joint resolution to that end. He agreed with Representative Nicholia that HJR 21 would do no good without a "wide buy-in" by most Alaskans. TAPE 97-34, SIDE B Number 0006 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said he would not vote to move the bill further than committee unless he sees wider agreement. REPRESENTATIVE JOULE maintained his objection. Number 0053 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked for a roll call. Voting to move HJR 21 from committee were Representatives Masek, Dyson, Green, Hudson and Ogan. Voting against it were Representatives Nicholia and Joule. Representatives Barnes and Williams were absent. So HJR 21 moved from the House Resources Standing Committee.
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